Curse

TheLordOfBlah · Mar 21, 2006, 12:37 AM // 00:37

As a MM myself, i dont find a problem with energy. soul reaping pwnz, max it

This is my skill setup:

bone minnions
Taste of death
death nova
veratas aura
blood of the master
deathly swarm
tainted Flesh

EQUIPMENT:
20/20 death staff, can get from collector in desert outside one of the mission places
bloodstained boots

Carinae · Mar 21, 2006, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

See that's the thing. All that 'mathematical and logical' BS means absolutely NOTHING when it comes down to real practice. I can raise and maintain just as large a minion army, and with equal effictiveness, with my N/E as you with a N/Mo.

I think you're the one being arrogant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I can also do it with any secondary or no secondary at all (pure Necro build). Yet you, and a few others, seem to just be trying to make it a fact that if you're not running N/Mo for MM, then you're a nub and can never aspire to be as great as you, because you, of course, are the best.

I'm not trying to make it a fact, I'm trying to help people understand that it IS fact. Self-healing necro's ARE stronger. Period.

The ONLY reason N/E or pure necro even gets off the ground is by leaning on the monk like a crutch.

Show me a better build and I'll run it. N/E is a weaker build. Any competent necro running a pure necro, or N/E will do better if they run a self-healing build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I've always been of the opinion that being dependant on self-heals (when not soloing), no matter what you're playing, is one of the biggest crutches many people never overcome in both PvE and PvP.

What other class sacrifices 400hp/minute? If you were taking about self-heals in regards to damage, then you'd be right. But were taking about sacrifices that you are inflicting on yourself just to do your job. And then you either push that on the monk or eat a minion, and call it skill.

Not skill.

You're just making excuses for crappy players and poor management skills. I'm sure it's all the monks fault when you die too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I'm not that arrogant.

Oh, yes you are.

So you are of the opinion that it's totally ok to make the monk cover your sacrificing ass above and beyond mitigating the damage for the whole team. How is that not a crutch? or arrogant?

Simply put, you can't run your build without someone else holding your hand.

Why not run a self-heal on the MM, who has a better energy engine and has inside knowledge on when a heal needs to be applied? Hey, and the self-heal heals minions also? Bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

In my opinion, if the player is actually a good MM, all he/she needs is the summons, VS, and BotM. Anything else just comes down to preferance on how to complement it, but it has no real significant impact on wether or not a large army can be raised and maintained.

OK, well, you're wrong. Secondaries have a HUGE impact, and that's a fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

Basicaly, those 5+ pages of empirical, numerical, and logical 'evidence' you're so proud of completely crumbles into a pile of meaningless bs when, in practice, people who do not meet your standard of 'the best' build for MM, can do just as good a job, if not better than you.

And how is this paragraph not arrogance? or boastful? Do you know me? Have we played together?

There are a LOT of N/E's who make the monk or other players pick up their slack, and call it skill. If they die...monks fault, ranger's fault, anyone's but theirs. Take some responsibility for your own well being! Your team will thank you for it.

No, not skill.....lazyness, stubborness, pride, take your pick. But not skill.

FACT: N/E sacrifices nearly ~400hp/minute.
FACT: N/E's only real self-heal destroys a minion.

How are these good things for the team?

Perhaps we could start a thread entitled "Mid-level MM Build - Advice" and put all the N/E wanna-be's in there?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

You're the one that made the ridiculous comparison between MM's and wammos I was commenting on, so the apples and oranges are all your's.

No, you're the one saying it's ridiculous. I think it's very much accurate. You don't know how to make valid arguments, methinks. Ball's in your court....

Manic Smile · Mar 21, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

See that's the thing. All that 'mathematical and logical' BS means absolutely NOTHING when it comes down to real practice. I can raise and maintain just as large a minion army, and with equal effictiveness, with my N/E as you with a N/Mo. I can also do it with any secondary or no secondary at all (pure Necro build). Yet you, and a few others, seem to just be trying to make it a fact that if you're not running N/Mo for MM, then you're a nub and can never aspire to be as great as you, because you, of course, are the best.

You can be skilled and yes you could be better then someone using /mo but that doesn't change the fact that...*edit* refer to entire thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I've always been of the opinion that being dependant on self-heals (when not soloing), no matter what you're playing, is one of the biggest crutches many people never overcome in both PvE and PvP. But you know what? If your thing is to be 'self-sufficient' then more power to you. I'm not gonna go trying to make my opinion an absolute truth. I'm not that arrogant.

There is no dependancy in self healing at all...and in no way does it hurt the MM build...what the hell else you gonna put in there? Anyway you state it I'm confident HA is more useful overall to the MM build and a party running MM...how is using a skill that makes the build more efficient a crutch...I know you're thinking wammo and two do not compare at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

So as far as my 'counter-argument', you completely missed my point. I'm not making a case for a particular secondary, I make a case for the player. In my opinion, if the player is actually a good MM, all he/she needs is the summons, VS, and BotM. Anything else just comes down to preferance on how to complement it, but it has no real significant impact on wether or not a large army can be raised and maintained.

You can play MM how ever you want and do it...if you are a good player you can do it with just raises and VS...having /mo does however make a pretty big impact on how useful you are as a MM.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

Basicaly, those 5+ pages of empirical, numerical, and logical 'evidence' you're so proud of completely crumbles into a pile of meaningless bs when, in practice, people who do not meet your standard of 'the best' build for MM, can do just as good a job, if not better than you.

yea that's called life but you don't throw out the model just because people aren't always logical...this is ment to show what is most efficient, you can run whatever you want for the 'like' of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

You're the one that made the ridiculous comparison between MM's and wammos I was commenting on, so the apples and oranges are all your's.

It's not the class comparison...it's what you compared about the two classes.

-- BREAK --

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

Seriously, N/Mo is just as good a choice as any, but it is not superior in [b]anyway[b] imho.

It's superior in many ways...but superior overall is contested. I've never said you can't run MM with /E or /Me only that they are not as efficient at what I consider to be a MM's job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I've been running MM for quite a long time and have played all variations of it. Atm, the one I use the most is N/E when in groups. N/Mo is ideal for soloing because of the self-heal, so that's what I use that for.

See previous quote...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I have no problem keeping and maintaining 20+ minions with either. I mean, keeping a large army isn't dependant on your secondary, but your overall skill as a MM. So, if one in particular suits your play style, fine.

Really, how do you keep the minnions alive when minnion degen > VS regen? Spam BotM...yea hope your monks are nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

But stating with an attitude that your's is superior is simply blind arrogance, making you look like quite a prick. Those with 'impirical' (learn how to spell it before using it) evidence are just trying to validate their arrogance with something other than 'because I say so'. It impresses no one.

I have tried to get people using other sub classes to tell me what the feel a MMs job is yet no one has responded...so until I get a response I'm quite happy to feel like my build is more efficient at doing what I feel a MM is supposed to...if you want to refute it then do so...if you want to say I'm being arrogant fine.

If you understand enough to bitch about it then obviously there isn't a problem with my spelling. I can understand you saying this if I was correcting someone esles spelling but this discussion isn't about spelling ability...it's about MMing.

There is no I say...there are tons of reason listed in this thread as to why /mo is superior to any build save maybe /RA and even then there are some good points as to why /mo > /ra...read before posting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

One comment I found really funny while reading this though, is the one about how 'most noob MM's are N/E's' and how 'N/E are the W/Mo's of MM'. Funny because N/Mo is what most people run, especially in the early stages of the game, for the same reason Warriors run W/Mo: self-heal. If you want to keep pressure off the heal Monk, fine, but thinking you're superior just because you can self-heal is the equivalent of a wammo with Healing Hands in RA.

no not really...healing my minnions helps my damage out put while hurting nothing, I can heal my fellow party memebers, I can heal myself to allow for spamming of saccing during battle when my monks should be doing other things with their energy...i have a hard rez...there are plenty of reasons why healing is efficient instead of just a gimmick... i.e wammo

even though I didn't post what's in that quote I agree with it
/e is like wammo because the normal response is "ohhh I can echo/glymph VS and my minnions will last forever"...while that is a complete missunderstanding of where the problem lies...akin to a warrior saying oh look I can keep myself alive forever, both wrong

Xaero Gouki Kriegor · Mar 21, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

i need help on this mm topic, i was in tombs diong b/p for the first time, i wasd doing alright, but this one guy said i should stay in back with the minions and have them safe instead of having them up killing everything, he said just have them there so when the pets die they will be a line of defense, but doing this, i was losing minions like crazy cus i wasnt summoning between deaths and taking advangtage of sr, what am i suppose to do with mm in tombs? stay in back and build up army? or have them killing stuff and keep summoning them while stuff dies? cus this guy said wait till everythign is dead until you summon, but i lost energy this way cus the 15 sr i had was being wasted. please try and respond to me with what a mm does in tombs

Carinae · Mar 21, 2006, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

even though I didn't post what's in that quote I agree with it
/e is like wammo because the normal response is "ohhh I can echo/glymph VS and my minnions will last forever"...while that is a complete missunderstanding of where the problem lies...akin to a warrior saying oh look I can keep myself alive forever, both wrong

EXACTLY! Someone gets it!

Manic Smile · Mar 21, 2006, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

Taste of Death is not "Stupid", because shit did happen. In an ideal world, your minions/pets/warriors shall take the hit, not you. But I have been a ranger and a MM (for 100+ times now), it happened to me twice when I tried all these new build (especially the OoB (quite stupid, actually)) and I saw a MM died when 6/8 party members are still alive and a bunch of minions are around. It is beyound embarrassing, I can tell you, after you been rebirth (res) by the other team members. Now, in a typical Tomb build, there is one and only Monk, and you expect him to be super healer to take care of everybody? What if he is also under attack and is running for his life?

1.) You're in tombs...
2.) PUG
3.) PUG

In a more positive suggestive light...try Infuse Condition or Dark Bond...I run 380 life and I don't die unless there are bigger problems then any build change can fix...why water down your build because PUGs blow, get some decent players to be friends with...not to be arrogant just to say constant play group > PUG.

One monk...HA is enough.
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=88824556&size=o

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

ToD is great for bombing. Bombing is bad in Tombs. ToD is bad in tombs.

Bombing is bad in all endgame...desert on or so PvE locations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LokiCai

You seemed so sure of yourself. Of course, if everyone is doing their job right, the Necro shall never be the "Hit Target", and the Monk shall never heal anybody but himself? (The MM does not need heal either, since first of all, he never got attacked according to your logic, secondly, Heal Area shall be plenty). But the truth is I did see Necro died while surrounded by his own minions. Read my paragraph more carefully, I never suggested to use ToD while you don't need it, it is the last resort to keep yourself from being killed and watching your minions turning against your party members and then everybody just quit because they were disgusted. What's more important, sacrificing one minion or have yourself killed and losing all minions? Most of time, I never need to use ToD if I went out with a great team and everything is as planned, but maybe one out of 10 times, the ToD would allow me to kill one minion to save myself and all other minions while continue the mission.

Play watered down all the time because of the chance you may die, and when you do ToD is not likely to save you, or just play like everyone else knows what they are doing and get a group that does...

I'm not kidding when I say I don't die...much... at 380 life...I have never used ToD, outside of bombing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

i need help on this mm topic, i was in tombs diong b/p for the first time, i wasd doing alright, but this one guy said i should stay in back with the minions and have them safe instead of having them up killing everything, he said just have them there so when the pets die they will be a line of defense, but doing this, i was losing minions like crazy cus i wasnt summoning between deaths and taking advangtage of sr, what am i suppose to do with mm in tombs? stay in back and build up army? or have them killing stuff and keep summoning them while stuff dies? cus this guy said wait till everythign is dead until you summon, but i lost energy this way cus the 15 sr i had was being wasted. please try and respond to me with what a mm does in tombs

don't listen to people in tombs...I mean consider it but grain of salt and all thatas a matter a fact grain of salt this as well if you want, play what makes you happy in the end...I agree that a meat wall is your main function but during battle as well...you just have to know how to control aggro as to not have your minnions drawing too much hate

bobrath · Mar 21, 2006, 04:50 PM // 16:50

I run a N/R MM that only runs one R skill. Let me state that for the record. I want everyone to know where my bias is. There that's done. Now on to the discussion (no flames coming, just points cause I think the lurkers are learning from all of this).

My starting points:

I consider there to be 4 viable MM builds: N/Mo, N/R, N/E, and pure N. I'm sure that someone out there is running N/W and using Healing Sig to counteract the saccing, but the above four builds are the commonly accepted "top" builds.
The "top" MM builds all run with two summon skills (fiends and horrors or minions), Veratas Sac, and Blood of the Master. That leaves 4 other slots for variation.
A MM performs two main roles - Tanking and Nuking. Their summons absorb aggro and the sheer number of minions means there's a large amount of damage going out.
MMs have two challenges. Initial startup and counteracting minion degen
MMs will max death magic at 12+1+3+(1 20% of the time) and will have Soul Reaping somewhere around 10 (9+1). Using up 145 of 200 attribute points. So you can bring a 3rd attrib as high as 10 (9+1) or other variations down from there.
I'm ignoring solo driven MMs. This is about a MM in a team environment (PUG or guildie). This is also only driven by PvE since most folks consider MM in PvP... to be a good joke.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that at least one if not two of your skills are direct damage skills. Something to help create a minion or plug the gap between creating a new minion and the next body dropping. I'll leave the question of a mandatory res sig or spell off this (as that's a whole nother discussion).

So the question really comes down to what you're going to put in the last 2-3 skill slots to make your MM better at protecting the team while dealing out damage. There are branches because sometimes (often?) you can't depend on a PUG to cover your mistakes and weaknesses.

N/Mo - obviously better at healing. Heal Area gives you a great bang for your buck because it can heal your minions without needing to click on one. Its a bit energy intensive, but with a high Soul Reaping that's generally not a problem. This build is all about keeping you and your minions alive for as long as possible. No real buffs available, but can choose to bring along a better revive skill.
N/R - Only other subclass that can effectivly heal minions (via Healing Spring). This heal can't react anywhere near as fast as HA, but is far less energy intensive. It can bring along a pet for a quick body (but remember pet death locks your skill bar for a short period of time!). Can also bring Spriits to make your minions better at killing and can self heal very well with Troll Unguent. This class can't keep up with /Mo on healing, but can make their army more damaging.
N/E - Its all about making sure VS is available with Glyph of Renewal and then summoning minions on the cheap with Glyph of Lesser Energy. You can crank out minions much faster then the other classes (making better use of Soul Reaping since the energy from rpid fire deaths isn't lost). However with no pure self heal you're much more dependant upon your party members to counteract your large self sacrificing hit.
N/doesn't matter - This "pure" build utilizes links to minions for healing and damage avoidance. Couple of benefits here in that due to runes, you can reach higher skill levels on your 3rd attribute.

I'd like to suggest that most MMs should consider adding Death Nova to their skill bar. With maxed death you're looking at 105 damage. Drop it on pets, summons, allies about to die. Heck its a "cover enchantment" for your tanks. No matter what kind of MM you are, summons will die - use that to your advantage.

If you do go with that then you've just reduced your available skill spots to 1-2. Adding a revive skill and you give up a direct damage skill and have one spot left. We're running out of room here!

So end of day, most MMs are very minimally different. We're talking about 1 or 2 skills in variation. A N/Mo can pretty much be no hassle to his team's monks. A N/R has a bit more flexibility in his build, but gives up effective healing. A N/E will have a bigger army faster, but *has* to have a monk on his team able to keep up. Pure Ns will probably need healing, but can survive longer then a N/E (but will be outlasted by N/R or N/Mo) - they can however outdamage the other builds.

Which is better? It all comes back to a simple question (imo). Are you willing to depend on your team's healers and how much? Is it more important to you to be self reliant or to be able to do more damage at the expense of needing another player along?

I chose N/R only because it gave me the option to quickly switch between those choices. I like being able to utilize the Ranger's adaptability. I do see the value tho in a Monk's positive health contribution. I've run pure N on tombs runs with good groups where I have great R and Mo already on the team. I've never run N/E, but the idea of being able to spew summons appeals to me.

ump · Mar 21, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xaero Gouki Kriegor

i need help on this mm topic, i was in tombs diong b/p for the first time, i wasd doing alright, but this one guy said i should stay in back with the minions and have them safe instead of having them up killing everything, he said just have them there so when the pets die they will be a line of defense, but doing this, i was losing minions like crazy cus i wasnt summoning between deaths and taking advangtage of sr, what am i suppose to do with mm in tombs? stay in back and build up army? or have them killing stuff and keep summoning them while stuff dies? cus this guy said wait till everythign is dead until you summon, but i lost energy this way cus the 15 sr i had was being wasted. please try and respond to me with what a mm does in tombs

First of all, if you get a chance to do some tombs runs using a ranger, do it to figure out which way to go, where the enemies pop up, where the enemies use AoE attacks to kill your minions quickly. As a ranger, there is less pressure on your as you are learning. The reason is, usually the group is only as good as the minion master because without that minion line of defense, things have the possibility to go bad real fast.

Back to being a minon master, your role is to provide a wall of defense for the rangers. It doesn't necessarily mean you won't do a lot of damage. Let pets be that first line of defense. However, most of the time, you shouldn't be so far away that you can't benefit from the pets death. Don't go out of your way to exploit a corpse, usually there will be plenty where you "make a stand". Also, encourage rangers to keep at least one pet up at all times. Even if they die quickly, you still have some room where they are away from your group, plus you benefit from the soul reaping and the corpse. What you need to learn is where to make that line of defense and let one of the rangers pull the enemies into your minions rather than pushing forward with your minions. Also, it's very important that the rangers interrupt as many AoE spells as possible (Concussion Shot on the terrorweb dryders are best). If a Fireball or Meteor Storm hits your minions, expect most of them to go down in no time.

merciless · Mar 21, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterThrawn

Which of these builds would be better?

Attributes (both the same)
Blood Magic 9
Death Magic 16
Soul Reaping 10
Healing 7

Vampiric Gaze
Rotting Flesh
Bone Fiend's
Bone Horror's
Verata's Sacrifice
Heal Area
Rebirth
Offering of Blood

OR

Awaken the Blood
Bone Fiend's
Bone Horror's
Blood of the Master
Verata's Sacrifice
Heal Area
Rebirth
Offering of Blood

All I have to say is that Awaken the blood is a waste because Offering of Blood shouldn't even be used as often.

Bel Ebih · Mar 21, 2006, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I'm not trying to make it a fact, I'm trying to help people understand that it IS fact. Self-healing necro's ARE stronger. Period.

Oh, well you could've stopped right there, since that basically summarizes everything else you said. When someone has convinced themselves that their opinion is actual fact, then there really is no point in arguing now is there? Yeh, yeh, I know "But it's not my opinion! I only state facts!". Before you start crunching out those numbers again, saying basically the same thing over and over again in long winded arguments, spare me (and a few others I'm sure). Doesn't matter anyway, cause at the end of the day it's only a game, and each one of us plays how we see fit. Now, if it irritates you that people may prefer playing builds you consider inferior despite your 'facts', that's your problem.

So... you've stated your opi... err, 'facts'

, and I've stated my opinion. Anyone else can just take what they want from it all, and I'll just leave it at that.

-----------------------------

Ok, now for those that are interested in actual builds and not in meaningless pissing contests, here are the various MM and Bomber builds I've run depending on where I'm going or simply for the sake of variance. Each has worked just fine for me, though of course, some are tailor made for especific places and purposes. But, most importantly, I've had fun with all.

Always 16 DM, and 10+ SR (maybe 8-9 in some builds with superior energy management). The rest is divided among a third or fourth line (if any) as evenly as possible. I never use more than one Superior Rune though, unless it's for very especific builds.

N/E

Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Glyph of Renewal {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master
Taste of Death
Rez Sig

N/Mo (for groups)

Death Nova
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend (Minions in some areas for heavy body blocking)
Offering of Blood {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Heal Area
-Free Slot-
Rebirth

N/Mo (soloing)

Deathly Chill
Deathly Swarm
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend
Offering of Blood {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Heal Area
Healing Breeze

N/R

Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiend
Offering of Blood {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master
Healing Spring
SQ or Winnowing
Rez Sig

N/* (pure Necro builds, though I usually run them as N/Mo simply for the hard rez)

Death Nova
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Offering of Blood {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Taste of Death
Blood Ritual
Rez

Death Nova
Rotting Flesh
Virulence {E}
Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Minions
Verata's Sacrifice
Taste of Death
Rez

Animate Bone Horror
Animate Bone Fiends
Offering of BLood {E}
Verata's Sacrifice
Blood of the Master
Dark Bond
Blood Ritual
Rez

I know I've also run many variants of most of these, but these are the basic ones that come to mind atm. Try them out if you want, nitpick at them if you want. Whatever floats your boat as long as you have fun.

Manic Smile · Mar 22, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

I run a N/R MM ...N/E, but the idea of being able to spew summons appeals to me.

/Me same as /E with Echo or Arcane Echo

honestly /Me > /E as I find the support skills more useful in the /Me lines

Pure nec isn't really a viable option for non bomber MMs...once VS runs out bye bye minnions or heavy monk dependancy...either way very not effective. I mean you can try Blood Renewal or hexes but BotM still out sacs the regen and your minnions still die off much quicker then with any of the sub lines you mentioned.

Infuse Condition / Dark Bond -- take a serious look at these

self defense > doing 105 damage...each minnion does 7-25 damage each hit, what is 105 gonna do that a few more seconds wont do anyway

Manic Smile · Mar 22, 2006, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

Oh, well you could've stopped right there, since that basically summarizes everything else you said.

Or you could actually give some reasoning, with some numbers please or at least reproducable observations, for why you think /E is better instead of just saying you are able to keep a large army up and other such vague statements that we never contested in the first place. Can /E be played...yes...can it work...yes...is it the most efficient...tell us why you think so. If you play it just to play it fine but then concede to us that /Mo is more efficient/effective instead of all the nothing you have posted so far.

bobrath · Mar 22, 2006, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

self defense > doing 105 damage...each minnion does 7-25 damage each hit, what is 105 gonna do that a few more seconds wont do anyway

A dead summon does 0 damage. If they're going to die - take the opportunity to do more damage. I'm not suggesting ToDing them, this is to take advantage of the mobs damage to pets and summons.

As an example: Tombs when a dryder gets off lava font, fireball, meteor storm (any or all) - your summons are going down and probably all at the same rough time. Why not have them do one last hit? Sure 105 damage (+ poisoned) isn't a game breaking difference but it does up your damage with minimal work. You can cast nova on all the pets (or just your puller's pet) prior to any battle and as they set their spirits, you've got plenty of time to pick a few summons around you for novaing.

In battle, right after you summon a horror its very easy to drop a nova on it.

Carinae · Mar 22, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Death Nova

It's a good spell, but hard as hell to apply, unless you just throw it on everything. Between raising, healing and generally trying to stay alive, I just don't have time to try and select the sickly minion from the swarm around the enemy.

Maybe my approach is wrong, I'm all ears on advice.

I get what you suggest about just putting it on Horrors automatically, but then you're gambling that THAT horror will die within 30 seconds. I'm more inclined to put that same energy into a HA dose.

On the other hand, if you KNOW it's gonna die, or only have a few up at the time, then DN is clearly advantageous.

If only there was a hot-key to select the weakest minion, or DN automatically applied itself to the weakest ally....

MelechRic · Mar 23, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Well I confess... I'm one of those crutch MMs that relies on monk healing to get me through the heavy sacrificing I need to do to keep my energy up. Worst of all I'm a N/Mo and I don't put any points into healing and only 2 into prot (because they were left over) and I use Rebirth. There I said it!

Here's what I run:
16 Death
7 Soul Reaping (yeah maybe too low)
12 Blood (yeah maybe too high)
2 Protection Prayers

Skills:

Offering of Blood
Life Siphon (optional and replacable with Death or Blood line skills)
Rotting Flesh (fire and forget Death skill with nice group effect)
Verata's Gaze
Blood of the Master
Animate Horror
Animate Fiend
Rebirth

Equipment: Scar armor, Bloodstained Boots (now thought to work), 20/20 Collector's Death wand, 20 Recharge collector's Death offand.

I prefer recharge improvement to casting because of boots.

What I've learned from this thread: There are other ways to MM. (I'm going to try them.)

Lastly, if I was getting complaints about my MM or my teams were wiping all the time I'd change. However, that's not happening so I'll tweak things incrementally and see.

Cheers!

A Leprechaun · Mar 23, 2006, 07:36 AM // 07:36

a quick question so here goes
i know it is best to take 2 types of minion/horror/fiend but which is best i know that fiends do more dmg over time and horrors and minions have more armour but what are the advantages of each?
should i take horror and fiends - horrors and minions - fiends and minions?

but then with horrors and minions you get a nice meat sheild but then again with fiends they keep closer to you for easy healing access
any ideas
thanks in advance
A Leprachaun

Manic Smile · Mar 23, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobrath

A dead summon does 0 damage. If they're going to die - take the opportunity to do more damage. I'm not suggesting ToDing them, this is to take advantage of the mobs damage to pets and summons.

As an example: Tombs when a dryder gets off lava font, fireball, meteor storm (any or all) - your summons are going down and probably all at the same rough time. Why not have them do one last hit? Sure 105 damage (+ poisoned) isn't a game breaking difference but it does up your damage with minimal work. You can cast nova on all the pets (or just your puller's pet) prior to any battle and as they set their spirits, you've got plenty of time to pick a few summons around you for novaing.

In battle, right after you summon a horror its very easy to drop a nova on it.

I'm not saying it isn't a useful skill it's just on the margin I think I'd rather have Infuse Condition or Dark Bond. I say these two because that's what I'd likely swapp out as I like my OoB.

Bel Ebih · Mar 23, 2006, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic Smile

Or you could actually give some reasoning, with some numbers please or at least reproducable observations, for why you think /E is better instead of just saying you are able to keep a large army up and other such vague statements that we never contested in the first place. Can /E be played...yes...can it work...yes...is it the most efficient...tell us why you think so. If you play it just to play it fine but then concede to us that /Mo is more efficient/effective instead of all the nothing you have posted so far.

I never said it was better, I said it was just as good. I play it, just as I play /Mo because, in my opinion, one can do just as well with either combination, or at least I can, since I speak for myself, though I can also say I've seen many great MM's do so as well. It's just a matter of preferance. What I've posted may seem like nothing to you since you think of this as some especific science, and just expect numbers. In my opinion, it's simply not. I don't crunch numbers, I simply go by experience. And in my experience, can someone be an excellent MM as a N/Mo? Yes. Can someone be just as effective with another secondary (i.e. /E)? Yes.

So yeah, I play both 'just to play them' because I can do just as well with both. Thus, no, I don't concede with you. But that's fine because people can have different opinions/preferances obviously. The problem lies in calling your opinion fact, with the implied attitude that those that don't play what you like are simply not as good or efficient, which is simply not true. You can state why you prefer a certain build, we all do this, but going out of your way to state how you think everything else is inferior, and then calling it 'fact', is simply not cool in my book.

studentochaos · Mar 23, 2006, 10:16 AM // 10:16

I run all of the different MM and N/Mo definitely is the most independent. However, it isnt the most fun. I stick to N/Me so I can jump between MM and SS over and over without changing my secondary (lazy). Also, I use OoB and order of pain. This is great because after the run is over you can echo into your other sacs and kill yourself before the monk sees. Instant party wipe.....

Edit: Spelling

D Fault · Mar 23, 2006, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bel Ebih

I never said it was better, I said it was just as good. I play it, just as I play /Mo because, in my opinion, one can do just as well with either combination, or at least I can, since I speak for myself, though I can also say I've seen many great MM's do so as well. It's just a matter of preferance. What I've posted may seem like nothing to you since you think of this as some especific science, and just expect numbers. In my opinion, it's simply not. I don't crunch numbers, I simply go by experience. And in my experience, can someone be an excellent MM as a N/Mo? Yes. Can someone be just as effective with another secondary (i.e. /E)? Yes.

So yeah, I play both 'just to play them' because I can do just as well with both. Thus, no, I don't concede with you. But that's fine because people can have different opinions/preferances obviously. The problem lies in calling your opinion fact, with the implied attitude that those that don't play what you like are simply not as good or efficient, which is simply not true. You can state why you prefer a certain build, we all do this, but going out of your way to state how you think everything else is inferior, and then calling it 'fact', is simply not cool in my book.

You're missing the point.

A 15>50 weapon will do more damage than a 14>50 weapon.
16 healing prayers will heal more than 15 healing prayers.
A N/Mo MM can do their job better than a N/E MM.

Its nice that you like N/E so much, but the FACT remains that it is not the best, and I'm sorry if you are unable to see that.